on this new hour of a new poll finds interest in our presidential election at a near two-decade low. plus devastation in rafah. israeli air strikes leave more

than 20 people dead. most of them children. here at home, texas' controversial immigration law equated with stop and frisk. it's spreading to other states. i'm ayman mohyeldin, let's do it. interest among american voters in this year's upcoming presidential election has hit a near 20-year low. according it an nbc news poll, 64% of registered voters say they have a high level of interest in the november election. now on a night that might not sound alarming until you realize it is actually lower than what nbc news found at this same point in time four years ago and during every election cycle before it going all the way back to 2008. interest in our presidential election comes as america juggles multiple crisis both here and abroad. u.s. is currently risking involvement in a growing war in the middle east as tensions

over the israeli hamas war reverberate throughout the region. contributing to rising inflation and gas prices for americans. meanwhile donald trump has reported to a manhattan courthouse four times this week at the start of the first ever kim trial of a former u.s. president. come november he could also become the first to be convicted of a crime. and that conviction wouldn't bar him from running to become our president a second time. but no matter your stance on any of the above, we can agree on two things. this is an unprecedented moment in our country's history. americans aren't interested in who wins the next election. tonight the question is why? is part of it the trump saturation factor given the historic nature of his trial, the average american won't be able to escape seeing this guy on their screen for what is expected to be at least six weeks of trial. or is it the fact that we're

gearing up for the presidential rematch that absolutely no one really wanted? as one poll told nwc news, i don't think biden has done much as president. if trump gets elected, i just feel it will be the same thing as it was before biden got elected. and to that point is this low level interest in this year's election due to a broader sense that our political system is broken and that our government isn't representing us. no matter where you fit on the political spectrum. to answer all those questions, life questions i would say, let's bring in the former senior aid for the biden-harris campaign. matthew doughty analyst, and also with us jonathan alter and msnbc contributor. adrian, i'll start with you. just to be clear, i disagree with that assessment. i don't think joe biden and donald trump are the same for this country. i know that was a quote we shared from one person who participated in the poll.

but what do you make of this phenomenon, adrian, that we're seeing out there this low level interest around the same time, so it is usually the survey or the polls taken around the same time every time before the election, but that people are beginning to lose their faith in our political system and not as excited about the election as normal? >> yeah, ayman, i would love to dig into it. i think a lot of it probably has to do, my guess, is that there is a lot of trump fatigue out there. this is somebody as you just mentioned, we're going to see we're in the very beginning of the trial. we're going to see him in the courtroom every single day for the next six weeks. this is also just the first trial of what will likely be several more. you know, during this election cycle, i think there's certainly voter fatigue going on. look, when it comes to president biden, the campaign is still very early, seven months away. there is still a lot.

a lot of voters who are not tuned in to the election and who are not focused on what's going on. and i think once you get more paid media out from biden's campaign, focusing on his accomplishments. focusing on not only the job creation, but the successes as president that he has achieved so far. you'll get what i call the avengers out there on the campaign trail, the cabinet members, the governor. we have a strong bench of really topnotch surrogates out there. once you see the campaign heat up, i think it will be a lot of excitement and a lot of enthusiasm, and that will make a big difference and reflect in similar polls like this. >> this is the first time matthew, certainly in my lifetime that we're seeing a rematch of two former presidents. it's been a minute. it's safe to say we've seen this. how much of that is a factor that this is a matchup that people are not necessarily excited about from the get go? and in respective of who these two men and how different they are by the mere fact it's kind

of a replay of two individuals. america is really about politically speaking at least either rebirth or new candidates or new blood in the system? >> i think it's a big part of that and a combination of things that we have two candidates that are both unpopular. unpopular among their partisan and unpopular among the broad electorate in the course of this. we have 70% of the country that says we are off on the wrong track and we have two former presidents running simultaneously in an immediate environment that people are constantly bombarded with information about each of them in the course of this. so i think all of those factors, i think lead to this moment in april, which were six and a half months away from election day, where people are kind of exhausted by it. i do agree with adrienne that probably come labor day when the argument is presented to the american public about what this election is about and how much it matters in the course

of this and the meaning that it will have. at that point people are going to be not focused on like oh, i don't like him and i don't like him. but focused on what it means to the country. one of the things that are showing us that way is that the number one issue in the new nbc poll i think as you know was not inflation, was not the border. the number one issue was protecting american democracy. that was the number one issue in the poll. so as that conversation happens, as we get closer to election day that we will set a new record. >> jonathan, how do you think this will come from the general election? is that enough time for both parties to be able to generate voter enthusiasm for their candidate? >> that is plenty of time.

to meet these expectations that we have had in the last few cycles are kind of unrealistic as you mentioned the newsletter, i'm an old goat covering politics since the 1980 election and to the 80s, the 90s, in the early part, turnout was much lower than what it has been in the last three cycles. so we actually might see that reversion to the mean and go back to the period when, you know, just not too many people are interested. however, the other factor that we haven't talked about beyond this being the first rematch since 1956 when stevenson and eisenhower squared off and he won for the second time. before that you'll need to go back to 1888. so the rematches are extremely uncommon and people don't like

them. they want something new and especially when they would have two candidates of the record age. you have a rematch and you have two old guys, neither of which are recipes for the high turnout. >> and thousands of voters across the country have showed their frustration with the biden administration's handling of the israel, gaza war through their uncommitted votes and unrestricted votes. how much do you think that might be a factor into the early poll numbers about the low voter turnout? >> reporter: look, i mean ayman, this is the beauty of democracy, right? where you have a chance in a primary to say to express your frustration and express your concern, and vote uncommitted such as allowing the voters and the democratic primary in michigan. there is a strong belief on the biden campaign that is reflected it in the polls this a lot of these voters will come home when it comes to the election. they just laid this out perfectly. there is a giant concern about protecting democracy.

and that concern is not because donald trump, that the captain of protecting democracy. it's because he's not. he'll want to govern like the authoritarian. we have heard the words come out of his own mouth that we have seen what he has written on truth social. so that's where a lot of the concern is. i think when it comes down to it, yes, after labor day as they said when they are tuned in when they are really looking at what is at stake and the strong choice they have in this election, it will become more and more clear what independent voters and those swing voters that ultimately decide the smallest part of the electorate is pretty clear what they are end up doing and they will vote for biden. >> yeah, congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez had a good point when she said at the end of the day, i would prefer organizing under a biden administration on foreign policy than i would trying to organize under a trump administration. given what trump has said, we may not be able to organize

against anything if trump becomes president in this country. again, freedom of expression would certainly be on the table for him if he invokes the insurrection act as he wants to. jonathan, i wanted to turn to trump here in a moment during the hush money trial as we did see the former president in a new light. this is someone who was reportedly falling asleep. somebody who did not have the stamina or the strength if you will to realize the moment he was in. could his image actually take a hit during the next couple of weeks on trial in a way that actually dents him? >> reporter: i think it very much could. i was in the courtroom, and i saw him falling asleep. this is in the reportedly it, but this happened. on more than one occasion, by the way, on monday and then again on thursday and friday. he was nodding off. that's not a good look. it will make it hard for him to call joe biden sleepy joe. that nickname is out the window. think about the contrast. joe biden has with what they

call kitchen table conversations going on all across the country where he gets to highlight it all. donald trump is having defense table whisper conversations with his attorneys. and that is not a good look. you can't get out there on the trail and the split screen of biden campaigning and trump in a criminal trial where he very easily could face convictions. we don't know. he's in some deep legal trouble right now. that's not a good look for trump. >> matthew, is there a moment in this process or trial over the next several months where the biden administration has to comment, has to talk about what's going on without interfering in the trial without appearing to interfere with the trial? but really using it to crystallize what's at stake for the american voters who may right now be as a result of fatigue for whatever reason tuning some of this out? >> first i'll say i totally

agree with jonathan on this. i think the falling asleep is the worst thing so far this year to happen to donald trump. because it is a core thing that he constantly talks about his vigor and stamina and all the supporters draw these crazy pictures of him, whatever he's doing, crazy stuff that they do. and that falling asleep goes straight to that. that takes a strength he thought he had into a weakness. on the other part of this, the biden campaign has been very smart. they shouldn't say a word about this until the point he's convicted. once he's convicted, then they should just go all in on it and basically say do you really want to elect a president that has been convicted of a felony in the course of this? i would not say a word until that moment happens. >> adrienne, final word to you. do you agree with that as well as a strategist? >> yeah, look, donald trump being on trial speaks for itself. why get into the politics of this? why try to politicize it? the biden campaign, both the white house and the campaign

has been very smart to say let the chips fall where they may. >> all right, adrienne elrod, matthew douhty, thank you for your insights. after the break, story of some of the families killed on the israeli strikes in rafah that mostly took the lives of children. (♪♪) i'm getting vaccinated with pfizer's pneumococcal pneumonia vaccine. so am i. because i'm at risk for pneumococcal pneumonia. come on. i already got a pneumonia vaccine, but i'm asking about the added protection of prevnar 20®.

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with each passing day of the israel-hamas war, it seems the world learns of more horror and more heartbreak. last night was no different. a warning to our viewers the footage you're about to see is graphic. capturing video of a newborn baby. nothing short of a miracle. why? because the baby was delivered from her dead mother's womb. the mother who was seven months pregnant, her husband and their 3-year-old toddler were all killed in an israeli air strike that also killed 22 people. 18 of them children according to the health officials in gaza. child born into a world

surrounded by death, now already an orphan. and while the theater of horror that has become gaza is live streamed on our screens nonstop, 24/7, this is what our congress thinks is the best move. >> on the vote the bill has passed. without objection, the motion to reconsider has been laid on the table. >> that was the house of representatives on capitol hill yesterday after passing a $95 billion aid package with no restrictions for ukraine, israel, and taiwan. the long awaited bill, which saw broad bipartisan support is now headed to the senate for a vote. roughly $26 billion is allocated for israel. that includes money for the israeli military and all its advanced weapons systems despite the growing horrors that the world is witnessing. you see there is a twisted and troubling logic that is at play here. american taxpayers dollars are

being spent all over this war. israel is using american made fighter planes to drop american made bombs on the palestinian people who we are in turn receiving, who are in turn receiving u.s. aid paid for by american tax dollars to stay alive. in fact the united states has been israel's principle arms supporter, diplomatic protector, and security umbrella since 1948. but what makes congress' recent aid packaging so troubling, it comes at a time where there are growing concerns about where and how that money is being used by the israeli government and its military against the palestinian people. so bad are these alleged israeli violations that axios first reported that three u.s. officials with knowledge say secretary of state antony blinken is expected to announce sanctions against one of the most notorious units against their human rights occupation. nbc news has not yet independently confirmed this reporting.

now you would think that israel and the benefactor would be cooperative in making sure its military conduct is in compliance with our laws. instead the reaction of the israeli officials have been to shun their concerns. the prime minister said that sanctions against israel's military would be, "a moral low." and went on to say his government would act by all means against any such move. israel's president has warned the u.s. not to interfere in its internal affairs. today israel's defense ministry says he has called secretary of state antony blinken to try to prevent these u.s. sanctions from going forward. look, there is nothing wrong with israeli officials telling americans to bug off, but you can't take our weapons and our tax dollars and work to undermine our security interest and our policies. for weeks the u.s. warned against invading rafah. so far israel has rejected those calls and insisted it

will go ahead with a rafah operation despite these u.s. concerns. just this week amidst the heightened tensions between the two countries, the finance minister is pushing to start the legalization process for 68 settlement outposts. in other words he's pushing to expand these illegal settlements. now this would be one of the most dramatic expansions for the settlement movement in decades according to israel's channel 12 news, which reported it last night. settlements undercut one of our own government's very own efforts at a two-state solution. the bottom line is this. american dollars are funding a war that is going against the united states' own strategic interest. one that president biden and the administration is going to have to answer for. as tay write in the new york times this week, gaza has become around biden's neck. it is his war, not just benjamin netanyahu, but it will

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and prevent one. talk to your doctor about nurtec today. before the break i discussed a split screen. horrific scenes in gaza as they celebrate a bipartisan aid bill that would send $26 billion to israel including $4 towards israel's defense system. joining us now to discuss this is the senior writer and israeli american politics. he also serves as israel's council. one of his latest pieces is called israel's recklessness, netanyahu's policy of choice. ambassador, it's great to have you on the show. thank you for making time for us. i want to start with these new comments from the israeli president. he said in an interview today that american political leaders should not intervene in israeli politics and instead leave it to the israeli public and the

body politic. israel is the largest recipient. but wants american leaders to stay out of it. is that a fair request, do you think? >> no, it is not a fair request. not only because of what you just said about receiving in excess of $155 billion throughout the year. but the american administration successes of american administration is not really medaling in islamic politics. you know, if you look at the symmetry between the two political systems, you'll see that arguably, israel is meddling in american politics. what israel doesn't like and that is evident in the president's remark, our remarks is to be told what needs to be done. but the fact of the matter is that the u.s. and i think you said that just before the break

this has been stated for the u.s. policies and the two-state solution and resolving the status quo. the unsustainable status quo that the occupation represents. that has been stated for the american policy since 1967. so it is okay even if it is uncomfortable for some israelis. it is okay for the u.s. to state their own policy. that's not considering meddling. you know, it is very, you know, pumping the chest type of remark that they won't tell us what to do and we will not, you know, we are not the 51st star to deflect. all right, we've heard that before. come on. let's move on. >> let me ask you about when israel doesn't respond what happens? we're seeing that and it has not happened again, but the officials with knowledge are telling axios that they are weighing sanctions against the human rights legislation and

that would be unprecedented. as you just said they leave america with no other options to try to change the outcome of what's happening on the ground. how do you square that though that we are giving billions of dollars of military aid to a military that we also now want to potentially sanction? >> i know it's not a word in english, but unsquarable. here is the thing, the u.s. sanctions that will be applied on the ultra orthodox operating in the west bank. that's not a policy. that's a part of the former senator patrick law. which is something that we would see an amendment in 2008. and not getting into the legal history. that is a law that says the u.s. will prohibit any cooperation with or assistance

to military or police units that are violating international human rights laws. it began in the context of drugs in the late 90s. and so that expansion into the foreign assistance act is what we're seeing now. but going back to your question, that is not policy. and here is the strange thing about this and why they are doing this that the vetting process led them to think that israel allegedly or this particular battalion allegedly violated their international human rights laws. that's fine. but this has a brigade above it and that brigade will have a central command and they will have a chief of staff and the idea of the chief of staff as he answers to that government

represented by the defense minister. i'm sorry to say it is a copout. if you have an issue with the occupation, if you have an issue with the israeli policies, take it with the political echelon. mr. biden has been doing that, but let's be honest, he has not made -- i hope he won't for other reasons, but that's for a different conversation. he has not made the transition between policy, he is concerned about what israel is doing. lloyd austin is imemployeing policy. that's not rhett ring. >> let me ask you what you wrote in your latest piece of israel's military decisions in recent weeks including the killing of hamas', the hamas leader's three sons and grandchildren and netanyahu announcing there is a date for

an attack on rafah. you write that recklessness has become the policy of choice. explain to us, if you can. i know we could talk about this for hours. explain to us briefly why he has become reckless. i think he was always reckless in his decision. i think in terms of his foreign policy and defense record, he's been a consistent and a serial failure. his policies of iran and his policies with the palestinians. his policies, managing the relations with the u.s. they are going back a decade. not going back weeks or months into the point where the war began. he's always been reckless. for him it is always about confrontation, politics, whatever is expeditious of that moment. it is never about planning.

it is never about strategy. it is never about setting obtainable political or deliverable objectives. it's only reactive. since the war began, it's become reckless. when i wrote about the reck lek when i heard specifically to gaza, but the same day, with pinpoint laser precision. so how did it miss the central world kitchen? and aid workers in gaza. why did it hit? you want to kill him? that's fine, but they probably deserve that fate. >> right. >> what is the point of hitting a convoy and that is the recklessness and that is the problem. now i'm okay with the war on

hamas. let that be a misunderstanding. but it lacks any grand design and coherent goals. >> ambassador, we could talk about this for hour. i'm sure we'll have you back on the show to discuss it. hopefully by then the war will be over in some way, shape, or form for everyone's sake. always a pleasure. thank you, sir. >> my pleasure, ayman. after this, here at home some states are following texas' lead when it comes to the controversial immigration law. we'll tell you about that. choosing a treatment for your chronic migraine - 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours

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(♪♪) i'm getting vaccinated with pfizer's pneumococcal pneumonia vaccine. so am i. because i'm at risk for pneumococcal pneumonia. come on. i already got a pneumonia vaccine, but i'm asking about the added protection of prevnar 20®. if you're 19 or older with certain chronic conditions like asthma, diabetes, copd, or heart disease, or are 65 or older, you are at increased risk for pneumococcal pneumonia. prevnar 20® is approved in adults to help prevent infections from 20 strains of the bacteria that cause pneumococcal pneumonia. in just one dose.

don't get prevnar 20® if you've had a severe allergic reaction to the vaccine or its ingredients. adults with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. the most common side effects were pain and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, fatigue, headache, and joint pain. i want to be able to keep my plans. i don't want to risk ending up in the hospital with pneumococcal pneumonia. that's why i chose prevnar 20®. ask your doctor or pharmacist about the pfizer vaccine for pneumococcal pneumonia. texas has been leading the gop charge in acting cruel border policies. now its infamous immigration law sb4 is becoming a blueprint for other states. idaho, kansas, louisiana, missouri, south carolina, states nowhere near the u.s. border with mexico have all weighed similar antiimmigration proposals. i was also following the trend. kim reynolds has signed a bill into law that will change the

federal government's authority on immigration policies. senate file 2340 criminalizes a person from being in this state if they have been previously deported or denied entry into the country. nevermind a fact i was more than 900 miles away from the border. joining me now is christian mara, global refuge president and ceo and former white house policy director for first lady michelle obama. how concerned are you about other states including some that are near the u.s. border with mexico. >> deeply concerned. we were worried there would be a domino affect and clearly what we are seeing is that going into an election cycle, immigrants are being used as political pawns. we are deeply troubled in the dynamic and what it means.

we should chaos. >> halation -- other bills that are variants of it are? >> i think that the course will weigh in. i think they will be struck down just as we saw years ago when arizona passed a show your papers law when it comes to immigration, a unified approach is not just essential for maintaining order, fairness, the integrity of our nation's laws. but that is precisely why we have the supremacy clause of the constitution. so i do believe the courts will deem these both illegal and unconstitutional. but also they are impacted l coo. law enforcement go al is going to have difficulty implementing them. migrants will have an experience, chilling affect where they are not going to be willing to come forward to report crimes to be helpful.

this will have a significant impact on economies because we have seen when states, when localities institute these kinds of policies, immigrants know the chaos and that impact they will have on their lives and we will see them choose to go elsewhere. >> this will come as texas' sb4 faces backlash that was recently blocked by the federal appeals court after the supreme court. i'm actually allowing the bill to go into effect. what are the chances that the new bill could face that same pushback? >> i think that we will expect to see that. that's the dynamic that we've seen so far. obviously clear legal precedence now that, you know, judges will be able to weigh in on. ultimately i wouldn't be surprised if this does go out to the supreme court. but my hope is states like texas, iowa who have, you know, really underric thatten some political grand standing to

score political points, who will realize that it is illegal, unconstitutional, and it is inhumane to the families that they are affecting. >> i'm sure you've seen many gop governors, kim reynolds, a harsh critics, deploying the national guard to support the governor greg abbott's anti- immigrant in the last few years. why all these theatrics far state that's almost a thousand miles away from the border. i mean the cynic in me wants to say maybe she's auditioning far position in a future trump administration. >> i won't weigh into the politics of whether this san audition. but i will say it is unusual when you're seeing states that are far in the interior who seem like they want to participate in this political game that we're seeing. it's troubling because

obviously, you know, we know immigration is a top issue. we know that it is going to become even more so going into the presidential. but the reality is even today there is an op-ed showing the counties in the u.s. will be experiencing declines. that is where we have an opportunity to explain that immigration is not just the right thing to do, it's the smart thing to do for a country, for counties that are facing the lowest birthrate. our economies need these workers and we need to stop fear mongering, implementing these unconstitutional policies. >> thank you so much. i greatly appreciate your time. it's always great to have you back on the show. after the break, what the outrage over basketball star caitlin clark's salary tells us about a cultural shift when it comes to women sports.

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-ugh. -here, i'll take that. woo hoo! ensure max protein, 30 grams protein, 1 gram sugar, 25 vitamins and minerals. and a new fiber blend with a prebiotic. (♪♪) you make a lot of jokes about women's sports, don't you? >> i wouldn't say a lot. it is on the regular. >> the number of sports bars are promising to only show women's basketball games during march madness. collectively known as the empty ones. recent stories on the sports illustrated website were actually generated by ai. and it is already making glaring mistakes. for instance it made up

something called the wnba. iowa's final four games against uconn was the most watched women's college basketball game ever with 14.2 million viewers, beating the previous record by 14.2 million viewers. all right, so basketball super star caitlin clark calling out weekend update host on snl who is totally wrong about the popularity of women's basketball. earlier this month, 18.9 million viewers tuned in to the ncaa women's basketball final when south carolina beat clark's iowa hawkeyes. the first time that viewership for the women's finals was larger than the men's one. it's the country's most watched basketball game of any kind in the past five years. and that actually includes the nba. in fact excluding football and the olympics, it was the most watched sporting match of any kind since 2019 in the u.s. now a big part of the draw undoubtedly was caitlin clark.

considered one of the greatest college players ever. a two-time player of the year in division i all-time leading scorer for both men and women. she has become a household name. fans tuned in again this week when clark was selected as the number one pick in the wnba draft. but excitement turned to outrage when they learned her base salary for the season, wait for it, $76,000. that is a sliver of the $12 million the nba's top pick made this season. many pointed out this pay gap comes from the two leagues vastly different revenue totals. but we're here today to challenge that notion because those numbers speak to a larger question by how much society values women's sports. joining me now is the sports journalist and the sports editor at the nation. it's great to have both of you with us. i'll start with you and your recent call. you noted that women's basketball is still undervalued by society. talk about that in regards to

the pay gap outrage over her salary. the default argument that people have said it is simply about economics. the women's sports don't pull in as much revenue as the men's sport. i reject that and make the case for it, but tell us why you think that as well? >> well first of all i do think women's sports pull in less revenue. >> it is actually correct. >> that exists, right? but that doesn't mean these women are underpaid and undervalued relative to that. the big strawman a lot of people bring up because they don't pull the same revenue, they don't deserve the same salary, and wnba players are fighting and arguing for their fair share. so the wnba brings in around $200 million in revenue. the nba brings in $10 billion. the way salaries are negotiated, they are set in the bargaining agreement between the union and the league. that's how this works in every sport. now as a share of revenue the nba players get about 51% of

all basketball related income. all revenues, 50% of all revenues go to nba players. and in the wnba agreement, 50% of incremental revenue goes to wnba players. revenue above the growth targets that the league has set. how that translates into all revenue is that wnba players only receive about 9% to 10% of total league revenue. that's where you see a lot of the disparity coming from. >> i greatly appreciate you breaking that down. that's why i wanted you to be on the show to explain the economics for us. you heard dave michael j. joking that no one watches women's sports and it is very common to hear similar comments from male sports fans. how do these sorts of assumptions contribute to the genderrer inequities in pro sports. will it change with high visible or high-profile athletes like caitlin clark? >> yeah, it's about marginalization. it's about how it's covered.

i mean women's sports just aren't covered. what will make caitlin clark and the phenomenon so important in what will make this moment a pivot point is that they were breaking through that glass booth if you could say and that glass booth where women and people who watch women's sports have been saying well over for a generation that hey, we have a product here to get coverage for it. study after study shows that they were not getting the same kind of shine as men's sports. but to go as you said whether this will actually change things in terms of strategy and the structure to make sure these women are paid what they are worth. we will have to wait that tabitha talked about. what we know about the history of women's sports is that people don't get paid their fair share without struggle. that means strikes, that means

rallies, that means op-eds in newspapers and directly confronting the league itself to do what kelsey plum has said, the star for the las vegas as. we don't want to get paid the same amount as the men. what we want is the same amount of revenue, percentage wise that the men get. the gap between 50% and 9 to 10% is a shameful one and that needs to change. >> i wanted to talk to you about how these athletes are platformed, right? it's the culture we create. wilson is the best player for one of the greatest basketball teams ever, but nike still hasn't given her a signature shoe. of course, lebron james comes to mind, given almost $0 million straight out of high school before playing a single nba game. his high school games were televised because of the excitement that was built around him. how does the way women and the way they are marketed to the general public contribute to

the popularity gap between when men and women sports? we don't platform women the same way we do men. >> that's absolutely the biggest problem here and has been for decades. people have pointed out that in 1983 the first ever title game got more than 92.4. we have seen numbers before. but cbs and other media outlets have chosen not to build on that where that has changed now, and issues that people have been talking about forever. the entire ecosystem and the marketing and the promotion and the channels these games are on and whether people could find them. whether you have the same level of coverage online. so that absolutely contributes to whether or not we could build on these moments because the interest has always been there, but the access to the athletes and to the sports has not. >> it is also being able to buy apparel. if i wanted to buy a caitlin clark jersey, maybe now i'll be

able to find it, but would i be able to find an extra large version of it for me? >> well, you might not be able to find it now. nike announced they are already sold out. they did not make enough of these caitlin clark jerseys for demand. these preorders are delays in august with women's sports. you've seen it in the wnba as we saw them with the women national hockeys jerseys, and they are frustrating. >> it's an important point. now let me ask you real quickly, david, about caitlin clark. they spiked. how do you see clark's popularity translating now into the wnba? can we be sure these new fans will follow her when the competition also evolves there? >> i think so. but what we're looking at right now is whether or not this is a moment for women's basketball or whether we are seeing a

movement towards women's basketball by masses of ladder. we're going to look back at 2024 as a moment and a movement where women's basketball busted through the slam dunks. the best ball being played right now is the other side of the ledger. >> no doubt about that with a lot of good story lines if everybody could kind of highlight them and bring them out to get people behind. there is some exciting competitions that will take place. i'll definitely be watching it as well. thank you to the both of you. and thank you at home for making time for us this weekend. make sure to catch ayman on msnbc every saturday, sunday 7:00 p.m. eastern. make sure to follow us on x and instagram. make sure to tune in tomorrow starting at 10:00 a.m. eastern for opening statements of trump's new york criminal trial on msnbc. until we meet again, i'm ayman mohyeldin in new york. have a good night.

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history, tomorrow. donald trump becomes the first former american president to face a jury of his peers in a criminal trial. that is days before the supreme court considers his claim of